Choreographer Gu Jiani's new work “Transition”, which premiered in Shanghai and Beijing in the summer of 2021, has been well received. As the third piece of this young choreographer, “Transition” carries on the unsentimentality, explosiveness and control, with a demanding pursuit of details as in previous works. At the same time, the stage floor “segmented” by dancers, boxes, ropes and mannequins, dramatic lighting and oppressive sound effects, creates relationships of individuals and an ever-changing environment.I feel the unusual stimulation of this dazzling piece, and after a long time away from the theater this year, I’m curious of what happened behind this creation.

The creation process of “Transition” lasted three years and it was quite dramatic。The dancers constantly changed location for rehearsal (six times), including at an outdoor badminton court near Di Tan Park, a sculpture studio in Songzhuang, and a dusty space with a concrete floor that has not yet been opened to the public. They started the piece with zero budget and it was not funded until the following year. There was constant turnover over the three years, and the final dancer confirmed their participation only two months before the premiere. Additionally, planned overseas performances were canceled due to the severe impact of the epidemic in 2020 and the budget was overspent. In this crisis, Gu Jiani was lucky to receive a commercial invitation from a international luxury brand, which relieved urgent financial needs.

Gu Jiani is tough and insistent. Looking back, she thought “how could I have done this?” However, this is very Gu Jiani; she’s laid-back. “Transition” sharpens the style inherited from her previous works. Outside her works, she and her dance partners explored a way of operating on a project basis, and formed a small but strong group, and together they are exploring independent production.Compared to the Chinese name of this work “Qian Xi” which is full of emotions, the English name “Transition” is more rational, objective, and precise. “Transition” indicates the switch of movements and scenes on stage, and also change and transition of states in real life. All is changing, yet something remains.

Chen Ran: I remember you used to rehearse your works in the measure of years. “Transition” was created in 2018, and premiered three years later, meanwhile you managed to balance revivals of previous works, international tours, and other work. How do you manage your working schedule?

Gu Jiani: I didn’t plan for the creation of “Transition” to last three years. When I first started this piece, I started from small ideas. Back then, there was “no production” and therefore no budget for the dance. I was a relatively raw choreographer three years ago, and people wouldn’t jump into investment once I said I wanted to make something.My previous agent Alison (Alison Friedman, Creator of Pingpong Production) went to work in Hongkong in 2018. We were doing a lot of touring that year, and then she left and the tours stopped. Alison knows a lot about artists and communicates a lot with them. She knows me and my direction the best. Since then, until now, we have been operating independently.

Sometimes you just can't wait if you really want to do something. At first it was very difficult to talk to people about my ideas and find support. So we needed to go step by step. We tried some materials in January 2018, edited demos in March, and then brought them to art festivals to look for funds.

Chen Ran: How many stages were there in the whole rehearsal?

Gu Jiani: The rehearsal was fragmented, and barely making progress. We stopped in March. In May, June, ideas poured in, and we had to move on. "Transition" needed four dancers, so we started looking for dancers, and we were lucky to have two boys to join us. In June 2018, we began to rehearse on the badminton court near Di Tan Park.

Chen Ran: How did you find that place? It’s hard to imagine a contemporary dance, a physical theater piece rehearsing on a park badminton court.

Gu Jiani: It’s next to where I live. I often jogged in the neighborhood and saw people playing badminton there. I thought it was a good choice. So I told the dancers that we would rehearse there in the following month. That sounds really funny...

Chen Ran: What was it like? Did the residents require to use the court?

Gu Jiani: We rehearsed in the daytime. We would take a nap at my place, and continue to rehearse in the afternoon. Around 7p.m., people would come to play and accuse us of occupying. Sometimes, they’d stand there and watch. My neighbor was a documentary producer, and at that time he saw that we didn't have any financial support, so he kept filming us. He also went to interview people around and asked if they liked it or understood it. Some people couldn’t see what we were doing and thought we were practicing martial arts or Tai Chi. After a month, we had about ten minutes of footage. We were influenced by the environment, and what we put out seemed to be a beautiful dance, and that wasn’t what I intended.

Chen Ran: I wonder what the ground surface was like on the badminton court?

Gu Jiani: It’s lawn. It was restraining us from doing jumps and sliding movements. There’s a lot of pushing around in “Transition”, as you can imagine, and the ground was full of grass, so it was hard to keep the texture and cleanness of the movements.

Chen Ran: Running into this situation during a rehearsal is the hardest. You couldn’t use the result of the previous hard work. So what then?

Gu Jiani: I called everyone. I didn’t tell them that we couldn’t use this part, only that we would try something else indoor. I had a friend Kezi, he had a sculpture studio in Songzhuang, and we went there. The space was high enough for putting up hooks and ropes. The ground was slippery and suitable for pushing and pulling boxes. We finished most of the work in three days. Two-thirds of what you see today was created in those three days. So space was really important, and it was there that I felt that what came out was what I wanted. That's when I told the dancers we were giving up what we rehearsed before.

Chen Ran: So the boxes and ropes parts were created in the sculpture studio! These are also very important visual components of the whole work.

Gu Jiani: Yes, they provide visual effect, and also meet functional purposes. If one or two boxes were enough, I wouldn’t use a third or a fourth one. These boxes are used multiple times. When I made this piece, one of the core ideas was that I wanted to make everything presented by hand. This meant that we dancers could set the stage ourselves without requiring too many skilled workers.

Chen Ran: So it's not just a creation consideration, but also a production consideration?

Gu Jiani: I had to make a trade-off with such a big project and low budget. We set the stage ourselves by hand, and that solved the problem of hiring skilled workers. On stage, we are dancers, and at the same time workers. I bring some of the behind the scene work onto the stage. I ended up taking the easiest way. If the dancers can change scenery and move props, I wouldn’t hire a skilled worker to do it. If a dancer could move a box directly or through pulling a rope, I wouldn’t install a mechanical device with battery. Finally, the work turned out to be relatively simple, pure, and it was all realized by hand.

Chen Ran: Indeed, production considerations are a problem faced by all theater art creators, and nothing can be realized until these problems are solved.

Gu Jiani: Actually, I started out with a lot of wild ideas, but then I thought, I had to give up a lot of my ideas because there was no production at first. It has become more and more simplified to the version that you see today.

Chen Ran: When Pingpong Production left, you undertook the work of a producer, while still being the choreographer and the dancer. I’ve read your team’s technical documents, they were quite professional.

Gu Jiani: Right, that’s what I’ve been saying, we have the software, but not the hardware. Every team member is highly efficient. We’ve got great dancers with excellent techniques. When it comes to production, especially under the current circumstances, it's really hard be relatively independent while maintaining a professional dance group.

Chen Ran: Especially when you are the main creator, you can’t be in two places at once. Independent groups are small in number, and each member has several jobs. It’s a real challenge to maintain professionalism. 

Gu Jiani: I gained the most skills being a producer, and it’s not just my choreography skill, but also other related skills. It’s harder in the early stages, when you don't have a production budget, and you need the dancers to trust you and spend time to put your wild ideas into practice. From 2018 till now in this project, the greatest difficulty is the turnover issue. At the beginning, there was no money, so I would tell the dancers that our production was a bit risky, and we would rehearse first, take note of the rehearsal time, and then we would apply for money and give it to everyone. When the fund finally came in in 2019, we paid for the delayed rehearsal expenses for 2018.

If I waited for the right funding, the right organization to invite us, I think I might be too old then [laughs]. The situation forced me to become a producer, and when I didn't know something, I would turn to other experienced producer friends for help.

Chen Ran: In China, the most common way is that you have an idea, have a plan for the whole work, or have started making a demo, and then you apply for a project where your work meets the requirements.

Gu Jiani: That's what we’ve been doing. But I haven't got such good luck. I don’t just get funds once I come up with an idea and write something about it.When we did “Right & Left”, I had everything prepared, and made a full-length video, but I was young and inexperienced, so when I applied for the Shanghai International Arts Festival ”Raw” Program, I stopped at the interview. Maybe they wanted to give the money to dancers with more works. The next year, I applied for the program again with “Exit”, and by that time, “Right & Left” had been performed many times abroad. And that year, “Exit” got accepted. Alison and I were still working together back then, and she quickly found us another commissioner — “Dancing in Autumn”art festival in Taipei. The rehearsal time of “Exit” wasn’t as long as that of “Transition”, and didn’t require a lot of money to produce, so the two commissions were sufficient.

When we were rehearsing “Transition”, we didn’t have any funding, and it was a big problem. In July 2018, when we were rehearsing in the sculpture studio, a male dancer told me that his economic situation was not good and he had to make money to get his life on track. So he joined a commercial project in Hangzhou. It pained me, and we were missing a dancer. We looked for a few dancers along the way, but for various reasons they didn't stay. We took a break in August, and in October, I made a plan for three weeks’ rehearsal from mid-November to December. The dancer who had left said he could come back from Hangzhou, and I said let's wait another three weeks, make a video and we’d apply. We had about twenty minutes of dance sample. I made an appointment with the dancers and asked them to be available for three months from April to July 2019, so that we could rehearse intensively during that time. I promised I would also look for funding meanwhile, and if I couldn't find it, I would still pay the rehearsal fee to everyone, and they did make the time. During the Spring Festival of 2019, I began writing various applications, and “Transition” finally got accepted into the "Raw” Program that year.

Chen Ran:  In addition to the switch of dancers, the venue for rehearsing “Transition” has also been changing. Apart from the lawn on the badminton court near Di Tan Park and your friend’s sculpture studio, where did you go for intensive rehearsals?

Gu Jiani: At that time, I already had a general idea about how much space our dance would take. I knew we couldn’t do it in a regular rehearsal room. When I performed at Vintage in the early days, I met a guy in charge, and he said Vintage had a newly built space in Babaoshan, large enough for our rehearsals. He could offer us the space for a certain period of time, but the floor was concrete. I thought our boxes would wear out anyway even if we rehearsed on professional dance floor, so we ended up rehearsing on that concrete floor for three months. Later, after we finished the show in Beijing, Professor Wenhui (a dance artist) asked:” Why do you dance on such hard floor?” She couldn't believe it when I told her that we had chosen the floor carefully and this was not hard at all, that we rehearsed on the concrete floor before. She thought it was normal for them back in those hard days, but it was unbelievable now you could still bear this, rehearse on the concrete floor.

Chen Ran: Indeed, it might be fine if it's a drama play, but a dance requires a lot of movements,  and many times the dancer's body has to impact the ground a lot.

Gu Jiani: We were practicing floor movements, and although we were wearing kneepads, they were all worn out, so we could hardly pay any attention to the movement texture. It was really a challenge for the dancers. After three months, it was funny that the concrete floor even turned smooth, and there was no need to wax the floor. I needed to stay iron-hearted at that time, for once I became sympathetic, the dancers would feel even worse. It was kind of scary, when you sit on the floor for a while, you’d get all dusty. But in the end, we seemed to have cultivated an emotional bond with that concrete floor.

Chen Ran: With so many difficulties behind it, no wonder the whole work has a tough, even brutal sense to it. So later on stage, the floor you used was still harder than the usual stage floor?

Gu Jiani: Yes, when we had the production funds, I went to the stage design executive in Taipei whom I had worked with before, and it took us a long time just to choose the proper floor. I told him that dance floor might not be suitable, as we had never rehearsed on dance floor. Secondly, there were props boxes on stage, dance floor would not make it easy for the boxes to slide on it, and we had a lot of sliding and pushing movements, so for the boxes to be able to slide, and for the dancers to support themselves at the same time, the requirements of the floor were very demanding. The stage design executive was also in a dilemma. He took a long time going through all the samples and finally chose a PVC floor intended for interior design.Since I also took part in the stage design work, I thought we could make a less conventional choice. The floor was only intended for the dance, so we cut the floor into segments, forming relationships with the lines and boxes in the space, to enhance a sense of toughness.

Chen Ran: It's very unusual. The sense of insecurity in this piece is really a fundamental feeling. When you enter a rehearsal hall, it is often a warm and comfortable place with high color saturation wood floor or bouncy dance floor, which relaxes you easily. But in "Transition", there was no such relaxation or comfort. The dancers' movements often made me feel alarmed, and I was quite intense during the whole performance. The floor was actually a key factor, because from rehearsals to performances, you danced on these unusual floors.

Gu Jiani: Yes. For “Exit”, although we’ve also rehearsed at different places, we still used bouncy dance floors, or else we wouldn’t be able to do all the movements and techniques if the floor was too hard. Many parts of “Transition” show toughness and fragmentation, so the nature of the floor has to first meet the visual requirements, before considering whether it could protect dancers’ feet.

Chen Ran: The PVC floor is much friendlier than the dusty concrete floor in the rehearsal room, so dancers can go barefoot.

Gu Jiani: Because of that, Xuanqi and Ming Da (Dancer) found the floor rather comfortable afterwords. They used to have to push each other on the concrete floor, and it was so hard because it takes 200% of your strength and energy to do the same movement on a concrete floor, and you have to move with quality and texture. 

Chen Ran: What about in rehearsals? They couldn’t go barefoot, right?

Gu Jiani: They’d wear socks, but they would soon wear out. That’s an interesting question. I do think the rehearsals and performances of this dance are inseparable. When you start to dance, you have to take it seriously. Once you are on that floor, you have to be like on stage, with or without audience. We are all like this.

Chen Ran: When did you find additional funding for “Transition”?

Gu Jiani: In 2019, when we were rehearsing one day, the “Raw” program, Shanghai International Dance Center, and Hongkong West Kowloon Cultural District came at the same time to see us rehearsing. They brought along foreign curators and producers. Chen Li from Shanghai International Dance Center said that when they came to see it, it was like we were rehearsing in a desert, because as the box slid across the floor, the space was so dusty, and the sun was shining through, forming a spectacular scene. They were surprised to find such a team doing this in Beijing, and decided to commission the work right after rehearsal, and wanted to help us look for other international commissioners. In 2019, I got a scholarship from ACC (Asian Cultural Council), so I went to New York. In the first two months, I did the exchange program, and for the following four months, I was basically in quarantine because of the epidemic. We were scheduled to perform “Transition” in October 2020, but earlier that year two of my dancers told me they couldn't stay on the project any longer, which was a big blow to me at the time. In April, I started planning to recruit dancers through online interviews. It’s interesting that a lot of things online are not accurate. When I went back to the rehearsal room in July and August, I felt that the dancers were not what I expected. Then I continued to look for the right dancers.

Chen Ran: How many dancers took part in the project in all?

Gu Jiani: The first two left. Two came to try it out and left. Then I recruited another two, they left as well. Then there was the one who came through online interview, whom I later found was not the right dancer for this piece, but he recommended Zhao Kai, and Zhao Kai stayed. We were still missing a last one. Earlier this year, I was working on a commercial project with an famous international luxury brand, and I met Ming Da. I showed her the video to see if she was interested. In mid-March, she joined us. And we took the stage at the end of May.

Chen Ran:  Speaking of that, apart from their own works, independent creators usually have to work on other projects to make a living. Is this famous international luxury brand an important commercial project for you this year? How did they find you?

Gu Jiani: It was quite a strange story how they found me. The French side of this famous brand already did their research before looking for a Chinese choreographer. They saw my performance video online and thought that it was in line with their respect for classics, innovative brand concept, and the designer's design concept of the year, so they decided to work with me. But they had no idea who or where I was. They made a lot of inquiries and finally found me. Then I knew they were going to do a tripartite launch, and the first live streaming worldwide. We had a quick chat and they just asked if I was available at that time. Then I met the designer, we exchanged ideas, and nailed it down. Their offer was reasonable, and they respected me, including my choices of stage, lighting, and dancers.

Chen Ran: The famous international luxury brand project came just before the final stage rehearsal of "Transition". Did this project support "Transition" at a critical point financially?

Gu Jiani: Yes, because the production budget of "Transition" was done three years ago, and there was a large turnover of dancers in the process. Our actual expenditure already exceeded the budget quite a lot, so this project surely did subsidize some of the over-expenditure of "Transition". The work was also an extended creation based on “Transition”.

Chen Ran: In general, how do you manage this unusual way of working? That is, how do you stick to independent production for such time and money consuming projects? This way of working is quite luxurious, having to invest so much.

Gu Jiani: It is a rather luxurious way indeed. It's something I've done over the years. In the beginning, when the production budget wasn't that big, I did it the same way because I thought it would give you focus to create a piece. "Right & Left" and "Exit" were created over a long period of intense work, but their production budgets were not as high as that of "Transition". Before I became an independent choreographer, I worked on a lot of projects as a dancer, so I had a little bit of savings at the beginning. But later on, I was getting fewer and fewer commercial operation opportunities. There are a lot of reasons for that. They stopped coming at me because some I rejected before, some didn’t want to disturb me seeing me doing my own works, and some thought I might be too expensive. The number of commercial projects is declining, but the quality is getting higher. With us doing more and more projects, I gradually have a small team instead of doing it myself. These people will gather again in shows that are relevant to me. So our group starts from works, and we operate on a project basis. I didn’t want to start up a big dance company and create works from there. The works came before the group.

Chen Ran: So Untitled Group operates on the basis of projects? This is uncommon in China. In Europe, for example, there are more good freelance dancers, and a lot of them would come to open recruits.

Gu Jiani: Right, because most dance companies have their own style, and they need to have their own dancers for different shows. You have to run the company, attend daily training, and keep up the good quality of the dancers. So it's hard to operate on a project basis. When pick a dancer, he may not be mature professionally, but often in the cases in China you need to give him more guidance. He gradually grows, and we can work together more. I think there is a sense of cultivation in how it works.